Tue, 21 February 2006 Part One of our February 3rd panel discussion on Games Journalism with Sam Kennedy of 1up.com, Vic Lucas of G4TV, Dan Morris of PC Gamer, Julianne Greer of The Escapist, and Matt Williamson of The Gamer's Quarter. (c) 2005-2006 Tom Kim, Inc. Comments[57] |
Hey folks. I was linked here from Sam Kennedy's blog. I'm about halfway through. You've been talking a lot about game reviews, viewing games as art, etc. All good topics even if they've been beaten to death. On the topic of game reviews though, I'd be interested to hear why you portray "consumer" reviews as you call them as a bad thing. I did an editorial a little over a year ago on what I view as wrong with video game reviews (http://www.gamesarefun.com/gamesdb/editorial.php?editorialid=8). In it, I did mention that video game reviews need a purpose, as do all things. I absolutely agree that the "play experience" is important more than a point by point review. I tell my reviewers that how entertained they were is vital to how they rate the games. I'm rambling though, so just some food for thought there.
Another perhaps more important point though is your constant comparisons to cinema and its history. There are a few vital flaws with the comparison. The first is that while cinema did need to evolve to be considered art, it has never lost its purpose as being for entertainment. That's why consumers watch it. And if anything, big hollywood has stripped art out of the movies. Yes, good movies are still made, fantastic movies as well. But a look at the top grossing movies produces about the same (sometimes literally the same) titles as games in terms of "artistic" quality, which is subjective as it is. Art is all about how the person experiencing the art feels about it.
But the other problem with the comparison to cinema, in terms of journalism, is the piss poor state of movie reviews. It's terrible. Of all the types of reviews out there (books, movies, games, music, etc.), movie reviews are the worst. People name Ebert, but they don't get much farther than that. Movie reviews have even delved into becoming gossip columns with a score. I remember one War of the Worlds review spoke mainly about scientology and Tom Cruise's love life.
I'm not prepared to say that games are more serious artistic endeavors than movies (they aren't for the most part), but games journalism I believe has surpassed it. Because there is very little celebrity involved in video games, we journalists can focus on the games and those who make them in a serious way.
Back to the podcast for me now.
Another perhaps more important point though is your constant comparisons to cinema and its history. There are a few vital flaws with the comparison. The first is that while cinema did need to evolve to be considered art, it has never lost its purpose as being for entertainment. That's why consumers watch it. And if anything, big hollywood has stripped art out of the movies. Yes, good movies are still made, fantastic movies as well. But a look at the top grossing movies produces about the same (sometimes literally the same) titles as games in terms of "artistic" quality, which is subjective as it is. Art is all about how the person experiencing the art feels about it.
But the other problem with the comparison to cinema, in terms of journalism, is the piss poor state of movie reviews. It's terrible. Of all the types of reviews out there (books, movies, games, music, etc.), movie reviews are the worst. People name Ebert, but they don't get much farther than that. Movie reviews have even delved into becoming gossip columns with a score. I remember one War of the Worlds review spoke mainly about scientology and Tom Cruise's love life.
I'm not prepared to say that games are more serious artistic endeavors than movies (they aren't for the most part), but games journalism I believe has surpassed it. Because there is very little celebrity involved in video games, we journalists can focus on the games and those who make them in a serious way.
Back to the podcast for me now.
posted by: Richard Brownell on Fri, 2/24 11:09 AM EST
Hi Richard-
Thanks for listening, and thanks for the well-thought out posting. I will be sure to stop by gamesarefun.com and read your editorial.
>On the topic of game reviews though, I'd be interested to hear why you portray "consumer" reviews as you call them as a bad thing.
Personally, I don't think that consumer reviews are a bad thing, per se. Like every other avid gamer out there, I read and subscribe to enthusiast publications, and I make use of their previews and reviews. The point of bringing up the issue in our conversation with the panel is that to date, I haven't seen many examples of other ways of talking about games in the press.
Everything serves a purpose: reviews are a consumer service to help a gamer make informed purchase decisions. Criticism and analysis might serve to further inform the non-gaming public about our beloved pastime, as well as introduce the notion that games can be discussed in the same manner as novels or film; that our enjoyment of the medium might hold more significance than as mere throwaway diversion.
I realize that editors have to maintain their readerships, and that most of the consumers of their publications are quite happy with the status quo. But I feel there might be more of an audience for even a little bit more first person writing, actual criticism, opinion and analysis than some editors allow. Certainly, that audience will never grow if more of that content isn't released.
>...your constant comparisons to cinema and its history. There are a few vital flaws with the comparison...
I agree that the analogy is flawed at best. Most of those who frame the comparison between movies and games gloss over the numerous differences between the relation of film to a continuum of other previously emergent forms, such as the novel, the modern painting, and photography, and the inability of early games to approach the same level of representation due to technical limitations. Not to mention the differences between the social and historical context between media adoption in the early- to mid-20th century and the late-20th century to present day. I merely use the comparison to examine the adoption of film, and its acceptance into the general public as being deserving of art status.
With the relatively slower speed of distribution and adoption of film into the mainstream, perhaps filmmakers had more time to build a body of work that might have been regarded as worthy of art status before their medium established a nationwide distribution system in the form of movie theater chains. Even so, it wasn't until there arose a vocabulary and context to discuss film as an artful medium that the public, outside of the world of filmmakers and movie buffs, began to acknowledge that the medium was capable of producing art.
>...while cinema did need to evolve to be considered art, it has never lost its purpose as being for entertainment.
I'm not suggesting that game developers all go out and try to make "arthouse games." I do realize we're talking about a mainstream entertainment, here. But I would hope that some game developers might take their craft seriously enough to strive to attain some more complex response from the gamer than just, "yippee!" or, "damn!" Or perhaps to attempt to make use of the unique strengths of the medium to comment or illuminate. To your point, I feel that the creation of an artful experience which is still accessible to a broad audience is harder to attain than the creation of an artistically interesting interactive experience that only appeals to a narrow audience.
Eventually, these issues will resolve themselves as people who grew up with games continue to play them into their adult lives. It's just that now, we are at a very interesting point in the progression of the medium. And I, for one, would like to broaden the discussion, and perhaps posit what can be done to move things along. Particularly in light of the current political climate, where state and federal legislators who wish to bolster their family values cred find games an easy target.
For all of the alarmist speculation of media effects, particularly in games, coming from some politicians, anti-games individuals, special interest groups, and the mainstream media, I thought it would be nice to produce some material that presents a different point of view. And hopefully, that would invole people who have a wider audience or greater credibility than myself.
I am encouraged that you came to the show through Sam Kennedy's blog, for example. And, I agree that the quality of games journalism has, and continues to get better and better. But I recently emailed a response to a technology and culture columnist at a major metropolitan newspaper, and I was surprised to learn that generally speaking, he held little regard for the enthusiast press. To the point that some of your peers in the non-enthusiast press might not yet perceive your efforts as worthy of respect, I would hope this show, and this panel might make them think a little before panning the enthusiast press out of hand.
For what it's worth, I applaud your efforts and those of other games journalists who continue to, "focus on the games and those who make them in a serious way."
Thanks for listening, and keep the comments coming.
-Tom
Thanks for listening, and thanks for the well-thought out posting. I will be sure to stop by gamesarefun.com and read your editorial.
>On the topic of game reviews though, I'd be interested to hear why you portray "consumer" reviews as you call them as a bad thing.
Personally, I don't think that consumer reviews are a bad thing, per se. Like every other avid gamer out there, I read and subscribe to enthusiast publications, and I make use of their previews and reviews. The point of bringing up the issue in our conversation with the panel is that to date, I haven't seen many examples of other ways of talking about games in the press.
Everything serves a purpose: reviews are a consumer service to help a gamer make informed purchase decisions. Criticism and analysis might serve to further inform the non-gaming public about our beloved pastime, as well as introduce the notion that games can be discussed in the same manner as novels or film; that our enjoyment of the medium might hold more significance than as mere throwaway diversion.
I realize that editors have to maintain their readerships, and that most of the consumers of their publications are quite happy with the status quo. But I feel there might be more of an audience for even a little bit more first person writing, actual criticism, opinion and analysis than some editors allow. Certainly, that audience will never grow if more of that content isn't released.
>...your constant comparisons to cinema and its history. There are a few vital flaws with the comparison...
I agree that the analogy is flawed at best. Most of those who frame the comparison between movies and games gloss over the numerous differences between the relation of film to a continuum of other previously emergent forms, such as the novel, the modern painting, and photography, and the inability of early games to approach the same level of representation due to technical limitations. Not to mention the differences between the social and historical context between media adoption in the early- to mid-20th century and the late-20th century to present day. I merely use the comparison to examine the adoption of film, and its acceptance into the general public as being deserving of art status.
With the relatively slower speed of distribution and adoption of film into the mainstream, perhaps filmmakers had more time to build a body of work that might have been regarded as worthy of art status before their medium established a nationwide distribution system in the form of movie theater chains. Even so, it wasn't until there arose a vocabulary and context to discuss film as an artful medium that the public, outside of the world of filmmakers and movie buffs, began to acknowledge that the medium was capable of producing art.
>...while cinema did need to evolve to be considered art, it has never lost its purpose as being for entertainment.
I'm not suggesting that game developers all go out and try to make "arthouse games." I do realize we're talking about a mainstream entertainment, here. But I would hope that some game developers might take their craft seriously enough to strive to attain some more complex response from the gamer than just, "yippee!" or, "damn!" Or perhaps to attempt to make use of the unique strengths of the medium to comment or illuminate. To your point, I feel that the creation of an artful experience which is still accessible to a broad audience is harder to attain than the creation of an artistically interesting interactive experience that only appeals to a narrow audience.
Eventually, these issues will resolve themselves as people who grew up with games continue to play them into their adult lives. It's just that now, we are at a very interesting point in the progression of the medium. And I, for one, would like to broaden the discussion, and perhaps posit what can be done to move things along. Particularly in light of the current political climate, where state and federal legislators who wish to bolster their family values cred find games an easy target.
For all of the alarmist speculation of media effects, particularly in games, coming from some politicians, anti-games individuals, special interest groups, and the mainstream media, I thought it would be nice to produce some material that presents a different point of view. And hopefully, that would invole people who have a wider audience or greater credibility than myself.
I am encouraged that you came to the show through Sam Kennedy's blog, for example. And, I agree that the quality of games journalism has, and continues to get better and better. But I recently emailed a response to a technology and culture columnist at a major metropolitan newspaper, and I was surprised to learn that generally speaking, he held little regard for the enthusiast press. To the point that some of your peers in the non-enthusiast press might not yet perceive your efforts as worthy of respect, I would hope this show, and this panel might make them think a little before panning the enthusiast press out of hand.
For what it's worth, I applaud your efforts and those of other games journalists who continue to, "focus on the games and those who make them in a serious way."
Thanks for listening, and keep the comments coming.
-Tom
posted by: fatpixelsradio on Fri, 2/24 12:47 PM EST
Just finished the podcast after a nice lunch at subway. Thanks for the huge response there. I enjoyed the panel. I'm always interested to hear what people think who actually get paid to do this stuff are actually thinking.
re: consumer reviews. I agree that the status quo can be a bit disheartening from time to time. But there are two things I remind myself of. The first is that at any time there will always be people that want the status quo to change regardless of how well it works. But more importantly, as I said reviews do have a defined purpose. And I don't think that purpose needs to be redefined, but expanded and complimented. To a certain extent, it is a disservice to your readers to replace a review with a "review" in the vein of Bow Nigger (or whatever it was called). However, there's no reason why these special features can't coexist.
If reviews seem bland and overdone to folks like us and we want something special, that's fine. But make it something new instead of pidgeon-holing it into the review mold. If reviews and news are the vanilla and chocolate of an ice cream shop, said shop would be foolish to replace them with special gourmet flavors as vanilla and chocolate remain the most popular. And reviews and news remain the most popular for most publications.
re: video game art. One point a 1up writer (Jane) made on her blog is that the creation of an interactive experience is art in itself. The creation of the huge sandbox worlds or making just the right level design is an art all its own. It's certainly not a science. You don't learn it in school.
And that's something some of us forget when we make the argument of games as art. We talk about graphics, story, and music as if they are a triforce of artistic power. But Blizzard's fine-tuning of balance in their games, the intricate puzzles in Prince of Persia, the feeling of immensity of a colossus in Shadow of the Colossus, are all artistic things from a programming/design standpoint. In that sense, games always have been art, but a different kind.
"But I recently emailed a response to a technology and culture columnist at a major metropolitan newspaper, and I was surprised to learn that generally speaking, he held little regard for the enthusiast press." Yeah, I've gotten that. My site was mentioned in a newspaper (can't recall, but I think it was based in Sydney) and it was generally not positive and referred to us as a blog despite us...well, not being a blog.
We're definitely in a transition period of sorts. Games becoming more popular, new types of gameplay with DS and Revolution, higher prices, HD, more game personalities. And game journalism is always trying to find out what it should be saying and who it is saying it to, and even has new forms of media (podcasts, vidcasts).
And I agree with the panelists that there needs to be more identifiable personalities in games journalism (and games themselves). Not household names, but I bet less than 10% of gamers who recognize "1up.com" also recognize "Sam Kennedy."
re: consumer reviews. I agree that the status quo can be a bit disheartening from time to time. But there are two things I remind myself of. The first is that at any time there will always be people that want the status quo to change regardless of how well it works. But more importantly, as I said reviews do have a defined purpose. And I don't think that purpose needs to be redefined, but expanded and complimented. To a certain extent, it is a disservice to your readers to replace a review with a "review" in the vein of Bow Nigger (or whatever it was called). However, there's no reason why these special features can't coexist.
If reviews seem bland and overdone to folks like us and we want something special, that's fine. But make it something new instead of pidgeon-holing it into the review mold. If reviews and news are the vanilla and chocolate of an ice cream shop, said shop would be foolish to replace them with special gourmet flavors as vanilla and chocolate remain the most popular. And reviews and news remain the most popular for most publications.
re: video game art. One point a 1up writer (Jane) made on her blog is that the creation of an interactive experience is art in itself. The creation of the huge sandbox worlds or making just the right level design is an art all its own. It's certainly not a science. You don't learn it in school.
And that's something some of us forget when we make the argument of games as art. We talk about graphics, story, and music as if they are a triforce of artistic power. But Blizzard's fine-tuning of balance in their games, the intricate puzzles in Prince of Persia, the feeling of immensity of a colossus in Shadow of the Colossus, are all artistic things from a programming/design standpoint. In that sense, games always have been art, but a different kind.
"But I recently emailed a response to a technology and culture columnist at a major metropolitan newspaper, and I was surprised to learn that generally speaking, he held little regard for the enthusiast press." Yeah, I've gotten that. My site was mentioned in a newspaper (can't recall, but I think it was based in Sydney) and it was generally not positive and referred to us as a blog despite us...well, not being a blog.
We're definitely in a transition period of sorts. Games becoming more popular, new types of gameplay with DS and Revolution, higher prices, HD, more game personalities. And game journalism is always trying to find out what it should be saying and who it is saying it to, and even has new forms of media (podcasts, vidcasts).
And I agree with the panelists that there needs to be more identifiable personalities in games journalism (and games themselves). Not household names, but I bet less than 10% of gamers who recognize "1up.com" also recognize "Sam Kennedy."
posted by: Richard Brownell on Fri, 2/24 02:32 PM EST
First off let me compliment the great blog.
I would like to talk about how much a price of a game affects the actual recommendation of a game. I don't think price should really affect the review and the final score. I don't believe a great game like Guitar Hero should be lowered in points just because it's 20 bucks more. Since someone pointed out Killer 7, I'll talk about that game. Whether it's 30 or 50 bucks, it's still the same game, so why should the price do anything with the opinion and criticism about the game? Should all games be re-reviewed when the price drops? I think there's a simple solution, have a side bar that says "Hey this is how much it will be worth your money".
The fact that games are becoming more main stream is a great topic, (Points to the PS2, mobile and DS). I'm always interested in articles outside of video game media. I think the fact that video games are a lot more popular is great, for one the age gap between those who play games and those who don't is closing. This fits into the whole "Are games art?" question. I think the reason it's hard for people to look at games as art is because most people see it as a "kids" media. Once people are able to look back at games and see how great they were, then they will begin to appreciate what video games have done.
Game journalism, I think is getting better and better, especially with blogs and more hardcore interviews (OPMs interview with Hideo and J. Allard and EGM's interview with Peter Moore) also I think that substance of the review should be more important then the final score. I find myself skimming to the end to see the score but a score means nothing if it doesn't have text to back it up. I'm still annoyed by the industries PR and directors, especially when they say "um...Wait till later", if you're giving a interview then act like it and don't be a bitch about it.
Finally I would like to point out the statement Victor made, magazine and sites don't really affect the final sales... I do think it does help out some games though maybe for Madden or GTA it doesn't matter but it can be everything for Phoenix Wright or Drill Dozer. I think that most people pick up an issue for previews and whatnot, which is sad really. I love it when mags or sites go outside of "letters, previews, reviews, cheats" I love it when they go into detail about game jobs, columns, blogs, anything that goes deeper into the gaming world.
Well that's all for now, thanks for the great podcast.
I would like to talk about how much a price of a game affects the actual recommendation of a game. I don't think price should really affect the review and the final score. I don't believe a great game like Guitar Hero should be lowered in points just because it's 20 bucks more. Since someone pointed out Killer 7, I'll talk about that game. Whether it's 30 or 50 bucks, it's still the same game, so why should the price do anything with the opinion and criticism about the game? Should all games be re-reviewed when the price drops? I think there's a simple solution, have a side bar that says "Hey this is how much it will be worth your money".
The fact that games are becoming more main stream is a great topic, (Points to the PS2, mobile and DS). I'm always interested in articles outside of video game media. I think the fact that video games are a lot more popular is great, for one the age gap between those who play games and those who don't is closing. This fits into the whole "Are games art?" question. I think the reason it's hard for people to look at games as art is because most people see it as a "kids" media. Once people are able to look back at games and see how great they were, then they will begin to appreciate what video games have done.
Game journalism, I think is getting better and better, especially with blogs and more hardcore interviews (OPMs interview with Hideo and J. Allard and EGM's interview with Peter Moore) also I think that substance of the review should be more important then the final score. I find myself skimming to the end to see the score but a score means nothing if it doesn't have text to back it up. I'm still annoyed by the industries PR and directors, especially when they say "um...Wait till later", if you're giving a interview then act like it and don't be a bitch about it.
Finally I would like to point out the statement Victor made, magazine and sites don't really affect the final sales... I do think it does help out some games though maybe for Madden or GTA it doesn't matter but it can be everything for Phoenix Wright or Drill Dozer. I think that most people pick up an issue for previews and whatnot, which is sad really. I love it when mags or sites go outside of "letters, previews, reviews, cheats" I love it when they go into detail about game jobs, columns, blogs, anything that goes deeper into the gaming world.
Well that's all for now, thanks for the great podcast.
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